In a recent talk with Jackie Pearce, I got to share my path as a writer, how I got started, what I would advise new writers to do, building a presence and following online, and much more!
Check out the full video or transcript below, and make sure to subscribe to Jackie’s channel for all things copywriting and freelancing.
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Interview with A Successful Copywriter: Corbin Buff
Full Transcript:
Jackie: Hi guys. Okay. So we are starting a new series here where I am interviewing successful copywriters who are crushing it out there. How they got started, any tips for newbies, all the good stuff that I think could really, hopefully, bring you guys value. It’s a long one. I’ll try and timestamp it. I’m first interviewing Corbin Buff. We have been in each other’s network for a while now. He’s crushing it. He’s just a really cool dude. I have a link to his channel down below. It would mean the world to me if you guys to go, just check out his channel, watch a few videos. If it’s your thing, please subscribe. I think so. I think if you enjoy my channel, you’ll enjoy his channel. And if you guys know, I have recommended not a single YouTube channel, not really for copywriters yet.
So this is huge guys. Also, I’m going to link to his product down below. It is called The Ultimate Client Generation Bundle. Not going to overhype it too hard, but like, if you are stuck in the era where you are in your career, where you need to start pitching, you need actual concrete template words to see it. Like the real thing. Like here’s how I pitched, here’s how I landed, here’s the screenshots, here’s the exact words I use, which I don’t see a lot of freelancers doing. It is down below. It is a killer steal of a deal I think, because you can see that these are the exact pitches he used to land the clients, to get to the absolute number crushing amount of work he gets now every month. So that is also down below. If that is your thing, it is approved by me.
I can say, I’ve gone through. He just gets it, you know, I’m reading his pitches. And I’m like, yes, finally, someone who’s not just blowing steam up everybody’s you know, and writing these essay long pitches with all of these complicated steps. It’s so simple to the point and you can see it actually worked in real-time. There’s other gems in there too, besides that. But I know getting clients is one of the hardest parts that most freelancers struggle with. So link to that is down below. But like I said, you can also check out his channel and there’s advice for that on there as well. So that is it. Without further ado, we will get into the interview.
Hello, internet. Okay. We have Corbin Buff with us today who is a kick-ass copywriter out here. And I will put links to all of his social channels below because he’s actually out here trying with his YouTube thumbnails. So please go– Give good advice and we will dive into Corbin’s journey. I don’t know where this interview is fully going to go, but I figure it’d be fun to try to learn from other writers out there.
Corbin: If you want, I can start just informally with the YouTube thing, like with the thumbnails. Because I thought if anyone wants to start like a YouTube channel, I was always like, oh, I’m never going to put time into these thumbnails or whatever. But I just made like a basic template in Canva and people comment all the time that they really appreciate the thumbnails, which surprises me. Because I don’t think they’re like anything amazing, but like the code to YouTube thumbnails, which is like one of the few things I’m good at on YouTube is big face, big text and like colors that contrast, and like a consistent like branding color. So I use yellow, but that’s like what I found does well.
Jackie: I liked it. That makes perfect sense. Because I was checking out your channel obviously to get some like ideas of like maybe things to talk about and all that. And I was like, look at this professional thumbnail. I love it. I mean, if you want to dive into like, why copywriting, how you got into it, what the start of your journey was. To inspire other people who are out there dreaming of, the beach lifestyle that we both love.
Corbin: Living in Montana and you’re in Denver.
Jackie: Colorado.
Corbin: We’re both living the laptop lifestyle. Anyways, I basically felt my whole life that I wanted to be a writer and felt like it was really my only vocation and thing that I really felt like called to do. And that I was good at my whole life was reading and writing. And I’m a big believer in the idea of a vocation, which comes from the Latin vocare, which means literally to be called. So something that you feel internally or externally, like literally called to do. And I promise not to use Latin again. So I don’t sound like a pretentious idiot.
Jackie: We will go down a deep rabbit hole, carry on.
Corbin: Yeah. Even despite like feeling that way. Honestly my whole life, I basically spent my entire early life, not believing in myself enough to actually go down that path. Steven Pressfield kind of talks about shadow careers. And so I had built this shadow life of like, you know, I was really good at English and reading and writing in school and I got my degree in English, but the whole time in the back of my mind, I was always like, eh. I ended up doing all these different things to try and get away from it. There was this nagging sense that I was, never going to really be able to make money at it or succeed for whatever reason. I tried double majoring in Computer Science.
I interned as a software engineer because like a big thing nowadays, especially with like, I don’t know, male advice on the internet for like careers, it’s like, oh you gotta go into STEM or like trade. Anything creative is just assumed that there there’s like no money at all in it for some reason. I did all those things. I tried double majoring or minoring in comp sci and interned as a software developer and was not good at any of them. And didn’t like them at all. But I was just convinced this is what I have to do to make money and get a career or whatever. And so eventually after doing those things or trying to, and not doing them very well, I basically exhausted all my options of trying to run away for what I always felt like I should actually be doing which was writing.
I just decided like in my last year or two of college, like, okay, I’m just going to go on the Google, internet research, rabbit hole and find some way to just make money doing this thing that I know I should actually be doing. I learned about– there’s grant writing and stuff like that. There’s a bunch of ways to make money writing on the internet. Blogging. I know you’ve talked about the mommy bloggers before.
Jackie: It is a powerful force out. Mommy bloggers, man they are dominating Pinterest.
Corbin: There’s people writing who crush it in all sorts of like different ways that are like not in the limelight. But anyways, I went down the Google rabbit hole and eventually found this like very– if I saw it today, it would seem super sleazy to me, like Reddit thread on r/slash copywriting. And it was like, I’m a freelance direct response copywriter and I make like 30 grand a month and I travel Thailand and I work like three hours a day. Of course, like being like 21 or something at the time, I was like, wow, that’s fricking amazing. There’s no way this person is like lying. But anyways, but…
Jackie: Definitely everyone tells the truth on the internet.
Corbin: So, I read that whole thread. Actually, they did like whoever the mod of the Subrata is like verified the dude and like his income. So, I guess it was legit. But anyways, that was my introduction to copywriting, like at first. And of course, in that thread, people are asking him things and it’s the very typical, like direct response kind of answers or path that peoples lead you to. There’s this, for some reason, harsh divide between like content marketing and direct response copy. I feel like for some reason. But anyways, in the direct response, like mythological universe, the thing you’re supposed to do is copy all of Gary Halbert’s sales letters by hand for eight months.
Jackie: Always by hand.
Corbin: And yeah, read The Boron Letters, Agora sales letters are like the only way you can make money doing copywriting. So that was my first impression. I was like, oh wow. This is like, I had this very mythological idea of like the heights to aspire to as like a copywriter, which none of which have ever ended up happening at all in my career. I don’t think I’ve written a single long form sales letter for anybody. But that thread, even though it doesn’t really align or like resonate with the kind of work I do very much now, it showed me that it was possible to make more money than you’d ever reasonably want or need just by writing simple things online. And so, from there, I just sort of decided. I’ve never copied any of these things by hand or done any of the weird things that people tell you to do.
But instead, without anyone telling me to, I was just like, I was very into health and body building and stuff at the time and like tonic herbs. I had this natural tendency to sort of nerd out about those things anyways and was already buying a bunch of products in those industries and stuff. So, all I did was I literally went through my Amazon, like back catalog of things I ordered and like hit up those brands and was like, hey, can I write you a testimonial or review or a blog? Or literally anything you don’t have to pay me anything at all. I’ll write this thing for you. If you want, you can maybe send me some free product, or a new product and I’ll review that.
That was basically my pitch. And I got one or two people to agree to that. And so that’s what I did.
Jackie: Never thought of Amazon. I love that.
Corbin: Yeah. And what else I asked for a testimonial too, instead of in lieu of payment. So, and the guy wrote me a really– I still have it on my website today, even though it’s for a job, I didn’t get paid for.
Jackie: Those are some of the best testimonials.
Corbin: People I think really overcomplicate, like getting started, they’re like, oh my God, who’s going to hire me. And it’s like, if you can do one or two jobs, like I just described for free, you basically have an entire portfolio. Like you have samples with a real company. You have testimonials from a real person. No one that you show them to is going to know that you didn’t get paid to do them. It instantly positions you as like, people don’t know if you’re brand new or if you’ve been doing this for like years. Especially like you also don’t have to have a full portfolio, fancy website of millions of samples and testimonies. Like if you do what I just did and you want to write for other health people, you can just send them two samples and one testimonial and it’s like, okay, we’re good to go.
That’s what I did. I leveraged those things that I did for free. Another guy whose brand I really liked and was using a ton of, had a pretty large following on YouTube and was literally doing a live stream one day. And I just went in and typed into you know, like the live chat. I was like, “Hey, you ever need a copywriter? Or like, anything like that?” And he’s like, “Yeah, actually I just have like gotten an opening for that. So just email me some samples.” That guy is still with me today. I still do work for him. And that’s the other thing I would say if you’re starting out, it can feel like, you know, you’re doing a ton of work and it’s going nowhere and nothing is really happening and you’re spinning your wheels, but then like, you can get a positive Black Swan moment of like, boom, like a big spike of like, oh, now you have a lifelong client.
Or like, now this person refers you to someone else and they’re a lifelong client and you never know what that opportunity is going to be or look like, but it can happen anytime.
And that’s kind of how I think about like everything now, like publishing like my own stuff. A lot of times the stuff, I’ll make a video or whatever. I’ve made a video that I think is like really awesome. And it has like 50 views and like, I’m sure this has happened to you too.
Jackie: Relatable.
Corbin: I’ll do something else that is like, literally just me ranting at the camera. And I’m like, this is going to offend literally everybody, no matter what walk of life or political idea they have. And it’s my most popular video of all time. And so, you never know, like what’s going to take off. So, I would just say to like, take this approach of critical mass and like quantity, like not sacrificing quality along the way, but just put out a ton of stuff.
Whether that’s your own stuff or if you’re trying to get clients, like, I see a lot of people just get frustrated. They’re like, oh my gosh, I pitched five people this week and no one got back to me and it’s like, dude– I’m going to sound like a Grant Cardone. But like, whatever you think you are doing, that is a lot of work, 10x it, and then you will have the opposite problem. So, if you’re pitching like five people a day and no one responds, start pitching 50 people, and then at the end of the month, you’ll have pitched 1,500 people. And so even if one or 2% convert, that’s a full client list. And like, some of those people will end up probably staying with you for years to come. So, you only have to do a big marketing push like that, like once or twice to have like a lifetime client list potentially.
Jackie: And you never know where they come from too.
Corbin: Your book by the way is great for that Jackie, because you give like an actual– one of my problems with courses is people make this 30-hour video course. And like, no one goes through it. And for people just starting out, it’d be way more helpful to get your like pipeline book where it’s just like every day, just do something. And then at the end of the 30 days, you’ll have all the clients you need.
Jackie: I did not pay him for this subtle– but yeah. I mean, that’s why I designed it too, because I was like, okay, like if you’re only literally going to read like two or three pages of something a day and like have something to do, instead just like spinning in the dark. Because it feels like that in the beginning. You’re like, where do I find these clients? I need to set up like a CRM and this compli– so many of these cold pitching courses are so complicated.
Corbin: That’s the other thing.
Jackie: Website domain and an email and this and automated.
Corbin: I see a lot of people, they get way too into like trying to do social media and like design the perfect website, like all at the beginning. And it’s like, you should not go down that rabbit hole. If you have a job that you don’t like, or if you’re coming out of college and you just like whatever, if you’re trying to get started and get successful at this business fast, you just need to have clients and projects and that’s it. And you can get both of those without social media or website at all, which is what I did for like probably my first two years. I didn’t have either of those things. Eventually, I built a portfolio in a Google doc. No one ever said anything to me about it. Like, “Hey, why don’t you have a website? Like what is this Google doc?” Clients do not care.
Jackie: No, not at all. I do all the time. They’re like, oh, you can’t pitch from a Gmail account. And I’m like, oh really? Because I still do that.
Corbin: Yeah. I would say like, I don’t know if you can make a branded Gmail. So, mine is like buffcopywriting@gmail instead of like, you know I don’t know, foodlover82 or something like that’s a stupid thing to present clients with.
Jackie: Agreed. But, is it the worst deter ever? Like no.
Corbin: You can still crush it as foodlover82@gmail.com.
Jackie: For sure. You get those first few clients. Oh my God. Let me think. Like yeah, I mean, you know, it’s so great that you also just like went in. I try and tell people like, just do something before that overthinking starts to, like– I tell people I’m like click off my videos immediately. If you get that inspiration in that moment to send your first pitch, like if you’re in the middle watching this interview, pause it, come back Corbin’s right. But like, yeah, like just go do the thing right now.
Corbin: And people have different personalities and are wired differently. So different things might work for you. I know some people love cold calling. My first clients, I got all through cold email and cold DM and then just referrals and stuff. If you’re just starting, I would say like leverage what I was just talking about with like the law of large numbers and like the law of averages, where if you hit a certain critical mass, like something is going to happen, like period. So just keep going.
Jackie: And if someone is going to feel bad for you regardless at some point somewhat.
Corbin: After you build a bit of momentum, you can kind of like slack off with that. I haven’t done a really big marketing or lead gen push in like forever. I’m more inclined to just like, if I see something that pops up on my radar that I think sounds really cool I’ll like– because again, it goes back to that idea of like the positive Black Swan where there’s like no downside at all. Like, okay I waste five minutes and maybe get rejected, like whatever. But like maybe it works out and it’s like an amazing opportunity or whatever. So that’s kind of how I think about it. But yeah, it’s something else I wanted to say, but I forgot.
Jackie: Just like taking advantage of it immediately in the moment.
Corbin: Oh, oh this is the other thing is like once you have momentum, what I like to do– like this is the other thing, people don’t really talk about, but there are a lot of– in the freelancing game, there is a lot of what I would call like soft costs and soft benefits where it’s not like a tangible thing. So, like for example, let’s say you’re established and you have like a couple of clients. But there’s always this temptation to like scale by kicking one client off in favour of someone who pays you a little bit more or whatever. And for a long time, I was on that treadmill. But I found if you have something really good going with someone, you should stick with them because there is a huge, like soft cost or opportunity cost in like onboarding people, deciding they’re a good fit for you.
Do they have consistent needs? Like, are they going to refer you to other people? Do you like the kind of writing that they’re asking you to do, and do you want to do it over the long haul? And so if you can find people where the answer to all of that is yes, even if I found someone who would pay me 20% more than someone who I say yes to all that stuff, I would keep the lower paying person because I’m just like inclined to– you can raise prices with them or ask them for referrals, ask them to go deeper and provide you more work. Like there’s a whole bunch of ways to like, get more out of people that you really like serving and helping instead of just like churning and burning people and staying on like a constant treadmill that way. So, that’s something I think would help people over the long haul.
Jackie: Fully agree. Oh my God. Yeah. Like I have some that I’ve kept in like the right is like, eh. Like they don’t edit my work ever, you know? Like they just take it, and they just go with it.
Corbin: That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
Jackie: Don’t give me all this headache. They don’t want calls all the time.
Corbin: I have clients. People think I’m insane when I tell them this. But I have clients who either I’ve talked to them once, when I like first onboarded them or I’ve literally never had a conversation with them on the phone at all. Best clients ever, for like someone who’s a very introverted person. Like I told my, my dad, that and he’s like, “Why? Like how?” People who are in like a more traditional business would be like, I have to like feel a person out, like over the phone and to sense if it’s a fit. But yeah, that’s the other thing I would say about like freelancing that no one talks about, is like building something that like aligns with who you are and like what your natural tendencies are.
So, I’ve told that anecdote to people and they’re like, that’s the stupidest thing. They don’t say that, but they’re like, I would never do that. I need to have like onboarding calls. Which I feel has become kind of a cringy sales tactic now. Let’s have our free 30-minute discovery call, which is why I never want to go with it. But yeah, if you don’t like having calls, like there’s a way to set your business up, that you don’t have to do that. Like, if you don’t like dealing with clients who have three rounds of revisions, you don’t have to do that.
As you get more like developed in this like industry, I guess you can start like– it’s still hard work, like introspecting and like deciding like what you actually want to do and what you want your business to look like and like who you are, because no one ever like teaches you that in this world. Instead, they just like tell you to go to school and then like, get this job because it’s what you’re supposed to do. No one is actually like good at like introspecting and finding out what they should be doing, unless they’ve had incredible parents or like a life coach or a therapist or something.
Jackie: Which is probably like 1% of the whole population.
Corbin: I will take like periods in my business where I do like very minimal work and I just sit around and like, think about those things, which I’m sure sounds like the stupidest thing in the world to like tons of people. Like, oh my God, you’re like leaving so much money on the table. Like you’d be taking on more work. And it’s like to me it’s more important just to like if I’m going to be doing this for years and years and years, like I want to think about like how I’m setting it up and that time is like priceless. That’s the other thing I would say.
Jackie: I fully agree. I do it. I’ve noticed about, well, my birthday’s like dead smack almost middle of like the year. So, I always do it like every six months, like Christmas and then like my birthday, I just take like two weeks off and I like to think and I try and tell that to other freelancers. That’s why I’m so glad I’m talking to you.
Corbin: You don’t need to have like a big ritual. You can journal or something. Or just sit around thinking about it. But there are people who like Tim Ferris, literally just like fasts and like rents a cabin in the woods for like a month. And all we can do is like write and he’s like, I have, my biggest breakthrough, he’s doing stuff like that.
Jackie: You already live in the woods though. Like, so basically like just right in our
backyard.
Corbin: Yeah. Really drive like 10 minutes.
Jackie: Yeah. We were just like, go outside. You know, those are overwhelming. Yeah. You went like all in. How long did it take you to kind of get livable at least.
Corbin: That’s a good question. I consider myself lucky to have like found out about this, in college. I think it’s like, if you’re trying to balance a full-time job and also get started on the side, that can be kind of tricky. In that case, like full disclosure, I’ve not done that, but what I would tell people to do is try to like, get writing experience in the thing that you’re already doing. So, you have like some samples and testimonials, whether it’s just like you can write emails for whatever company you’re in or even if it’s just like a flyer or internal memo, like write something.
So, you have like some sort of portfolio before you start. Like, I quit my job. I’m super risk-averse actually, which surprises a lot of people. So, I would never be able to quit my job without anything lined up. That’s just me. So, like, I would say like get at least like livable. The other thing I advise people to do is like figure out just like what your expenses are and like what the minimal viable, like number that it’s going to take for you to like live somewhat comfortably before you quit your job and try to get that number before you go have that conversation with your boss.
But for me personally, I started doing this while I was in college. So, I had two or three clients, by the time I was graduating, which sounds a lot better than doing it while you have a job, but still had its challenges. Since I was an English major, I was writing, you know, 15-page papers on Moby Dick.
Jackie: People have no idea how much writing it is.
Corbin: Yeah. When I graduated, I was kind of like barely making enough to like probably pay all the bills, but I was also like I don’t have wife and kids. Like I was in an apartment with like three other guys, and I think my rent was less than $700 a month. And I own a car that is fully paid off. So, it’s like I live a pretty minimalistic lifestyle. Just in general. Which helps by the way, if you are starting out, that’s the other thing I would say is just stay kind of lean, which I know is like a cliche thing to say now, but like actually do it. Don’t buy a BMW your first, like six months in your freelancing business. Which I don’t know how you would do that anyway. You’re doing better than I am maybe.
I had kind of like by the time I graduated, I was kind of like making just enough to live pretty comfortably just off the freelancing income. But I also did some things like, you can just get kind of like scrappy and thrifty, if you really need to, if you have like the kind of lifestyle I have. So, like, I was like the billing manager at some company in town, which I literally just sent a couple of emails each morning and they paid me like, I don’t know, 30 bucks an hour for that. I would do moving gigs for people off of Craigslist. They pay you cash, and you don’t have to report it or pay taxes on it. Hypothetically of course. Allegedly.
I did stuff like that to sort of bring in extra money. If I really needed to. But eventually, it just got to the point where I had enough of like a client list that I didn’t need to do that. And I don’t know when exactly that switch flipped. But yeah, for me, like the way I live now, I can live pretty well if I made like two grand a month is what I tell people. Which I know like talking numbers make some people like, you’re poor dude or other people are like, oh my God, this guy’s a billionaire. Like you basically end up upsetting someone no matter what. That’s what I would say my lifestyle is like right now. And that’s the advantage of like staying lean is like, okay, maybe it takes you six months a year to really like ramp this thing up, let’s say. But in the meantime, just wait tables or something, if you really need to.
Jackie: Literally something that’s not writing. I always tell people, do something else to like, give your brain a five-second breather. Like there’s so many people who do their own writing and their own blog. And I’m like, that’s fine. But, if that’s all you do 24/7 in all of your free time…
Corbin: Yeah. I still think about that now, too. I have some clients now who like, they pay me like 500 bucks a month just for proofreading and copy editing. And I’m sure some people are like 500 bucks a month Corbin, poor boy over here. But 500 bucks a month would pay my grocery bill for two months in a row. So, I’m not going to whack shake a stick at that. And also, it’s a very low bandwidth activity. Like I can do that in 15 minutes, put some music on and I’m done.
I think in terms like that too, of having projects of multiple different intensities as you’re going, instead of just being like, I know lots of successful writers who are just like, I’m the case study person, or I’m the healthcare content marketing person, or I’m the super annoying direct response, like sales letter guy with like doctors hate him, discover this 98-year-old man’s secret to living an eternal life with six pack abs in three easy steps.
But there are people who like really love specializing on that. And I’m the total opposite. Like I get distracted very easily. I like to have multiple different things going on. I have no specialty at all. Although some of the niches I write in now are very sort of specialized and like niche. But I’m not like the Chinese tonic herb writer. Because I know like one person who needs writing like that. So, I’m not going to brand myself that way. I like doing it as a break from writing about FinTech articles, let’s say. But if all I wrote about was Chinese tonic tribalism, I would go and sing it.
Jackie: I feel that spiritually. I feel that, yeah. That’s why I love it. I’m so glad we’re doing this. Because I think it’s such a like realistic shakeup from what’s out there. I’m a millionaire because I only do healthcare articles, blah blah. And I’m like, are you though? First of all. But second of all, I’m like for so many people, we know statistically the grand would be life-changing. On top of whatever they make. It’s life-changing for people.
Corbin: Yeah. So, I, I have like a blog, for example, that is like just getting to the point of like between like running display ads and like Amazon associates and some like products I launched are like, it’s just getting to the point of making me like four or 500 bucks a month. Which again, people would say like, oh that’s nothing dude. But again, it’s like, I don’t know, like for me I just said like I have clients who will pay me let’s say 500 bucks a month to do their proofreading. And so now I have 500 bucks a month coming in from not having to do work ever again for like someone for that 500 bucks. And so that’s how I think about it. You know, and it’s important to also celebrate your wins. I think even if they are small. This is going to be a side tangent, but I joined Twitter because everyone is like– I know a ton of people who are way smarter than me who are like, oh I have this great audience on Twitter. And it’s so cool. And there are things that I’ve learned from the Twitter community, like everyone loves Gumroad for some reason on Twitter.
I don’t know why it’s like the thing that everybody does there. So, I actually really like Gumroad. But then there are other things on Twitter. Like everything I see is just like seven steps to how I started my multimillion-dollar SAS company at age 19 while living at home. And it’s like, this is obviously like not true or relatable at all, but that in the back of my mind, I’m like, why haven’t I done that? Like I suck. I don’t know. Maybe that says more about like my mental health than other people’s, but I feel the need to tune that stuff out or even like stuff on LinkedIn. I like if I look at it too much, it drives me crazy with like other people’s like humble brags or they’re like ads that they’re trying to sell you on.
Jackie: I’m so glad you said that. Because like literally the last, like, I don’t know, seven power hours I’ve had with people, everybody mentions Twitter and the pure anxiety that it brings them. Like literally word for word. And I’m like, I don’t know what is taking– just Twitter’s been like that for a long time, but I think the threads, I don’t know, whatever that’s a side tangent. Even me I’ll find a thread from some like 16-year-old. And I’m like, what?
Corbin: It’s like not actionable or helpful at all. Like my seven steps to like building a million-dollar company. Like if it was real, it would’ve taken the person like 10 years and there’d be like so many nuances. Cold showers.
Jackie: Cold showers for sure. So, anyone out there please know that it is not just you, who got sucked into the Twitter rabbit holes.
Corbin: Whatever’s going on over there.
Jackie: Celebrate your wins. Like Corbin said of like, oh my God. Even now, even when I still get like little projects here and there and it was just like a lot of work and it was just like, even if it wasn’t like, ooh, like $10,000, just like something I’m proud of. I’m like, yeah, I’ll go buy a new plant. That’s like what I do. That’s how I celebrate.
Corbin: No, that’s what I do too. I don’t agree with like a lot of like pop psychology, but I think either Carl Jung or like someone said, like the psyche likes deals. So that’s how, like I try to reward myself with things. Otherwise, I don’t get anything done. So even if it is like, okay, I’m going to do this thing. And then I get to go on a walk or like get to eat lunch. Thinking in terms of like, it sounds like honestly kind of like depressing if you think about it, like humans, they need that like carry-on stick like hanging in front of them. That’s how I like keep myself accountable, I guess. Because otherwise, I would just play MapleStory all day on my computer or something.
Jackie: Relatable content. Oh my God. If we ever have another interview, we’ll have to sit here and just talk about like psychology for hours. Because that’s my side, like nerd hobby. But like, let me think. Is there anything else you would tell? I think for the most part, like most people I talk to, it’s like overwhelmed. First there’s like the 10k people and then there’s like they don’t even know like the first step. I mean obviously like practice your writing.
Definitely like you said, you started with like the things you bought like most recently. I think that’s a great place for people to start.
Corbin: Well, you say 10k. Do you mean like hitting 10k a month?
Jackie: Yeah – between your first whole pitch and then like, I’m retired by the beach. Nobody talks about that middle like I made my first 50 bucks.
Corbin: Yeah. What I would tell people honestly is like, I would say that like going from making 30k a year to like 70k a year will change your life for the better. I’ve found a pretty like worthwhile thing that is probably worth doing. But beyond that, unless you’re making like 500k a year, I don’t really notice any difference in terms of like– I mean, this is my like black sheep kind of contrarian mentality coming out again, or like my minimalism or like my monkish living habits. But like this year will be my first six-figure year and it’s like kind of, I gave myself a pat on the back, like it’s exciting. But my life is literally the same as when I made like 30 or 40 grand a year.
And like when I made like 40 and then like for 2021, I made like 70 grand and some change and it was like I was finally able to get my place. I don’t have annoying roommates to like clean up after. I have my own home office. And so, making that jump in income can get you a huge like return on your quality of life. But like jumping from like, I don’t know, 70k to 100k it’s like, okay, I have like 30 grand to put into the stock market. Which to me is not super motivating. And so that’s another thing with like I guess like business owners that I talk to, and it’s why I don’t join any of these like masterminds or whatever.
Like sometimes I like networking with people like one on one like this or whatever. But a lot of like, I don’t have this mindset of needing to constantly grow like my income every month or every year. To me, like if you are spending less than you make and you have a big chunk of change left over to like keep in cash to help you sleep well at night or like invest toward a better life. Like that’s what success is to me. And getting that number way bigger for no reason is like, not super exciting to me. It’s kind of like if someone just gathered up a bunch of like tanks of water or oxygen, like an in essential natural resource and, or like stored energy basically, which is what money is. And they just like had all this like you’d think like, okay, like this person’s kind of like stupid.
Like why are they doing this? But for some reason, these people who like pile up tons of money or like material things, or like fancy liabilities to like impress people who don’t care about them. We tend to like lionize people like that, even though it’s usually a result of them having a hole in themselves or a traumatic– something went wrong in their life or feeling the need to like, constantly like prove themselves in some way, which is something I still like kind of struggle with, but I’m conscious enough to like, not make it the driving force in my life. And so that’s the other thing I would say is just like reflect on like what you want to make honestly, which is what just decide at the beginning of the year, honestly, like, okay, it’d be pretty cool to make this, this year.
And as long as I’m like on track for that. I have months where the first quarter of this year I had a really big windfall project. And so, I was like, I could have easily been like, oh, gimme, gimme even more gravy on top. I want like constantly be, I want to have this. I ended up like I said, just playing MapleStory or like reading books or I have other writing I do that I don’t make any money from. Like short stories or poems or like blogs or blogs that no one reads. I’ll do all kinds of stuff without any expectation that I need to have like a material return on it because I’m a businessman.
I’ve kind of pivoted away towards like I don’t really think of myself as like a businessperson or entrepreneur, even though I call myself a solo entrepreneur just because it’s like an easy way to describe myself. But at the risk of sounding like cringy or like neck beardy, I’m trying to like make the mental pivot of like thinking of myself as like a gentleman of leisure or like an artist almost where like in antiquity it would be like, if you had plenty of money and you didn’t need to like constantly be like fanatically working all the time, but you chose to, people would be like, what the hell is wrong with this person? Like instead, it would be like, it’s a point of refinement to basically have all your needs met and then spend your time being a flaneur I think.
It’s like a French term of like, basically like a wanderer or like a leisurely person who just researches for fun or is like an armchair scholar or writes whatever they want without like any basically thought to like needing to like impress people with it, or like make tons of money or like rank it on Google or whatever. And so yeah, I’m trying to like trying to basically live a more like leisurely life as like a Renaissance man rather than be like, oh, I need to constantly be hustling. Making more money than I, whatever realistically know what to do with, which for me is like 50 grand a year. I could live like a king because like, I take like two trips a year. I like nice coffee and really good tea.
Aside from that, everything else I like to do is free. Like I like going for walks and taking baths and reading books and that’s like most of my life and cooking. So, I buy like good food, but that’s pretty much what I spend money on.
Jackie: I love it though, because like so much of the copywriting world is so much of like hustle money. Agency start, you know, hire other people.
Corbin: I was in that trap for like years. The reason I like hark on this so much is because I almost drove myself insane with it. I was like, I’m going to do this copywriting thing. And then also try and start an agency and then, I wanted to start like a VR real estate walkthrough. Those Matterport cameras. I’m like, start that too. Why not? I like moving things. I should start a moving company and just stop it dude. It’s just stupid. Because like, if you want to make an extra two grand, just get another writing client, like stop trying to like I don’t know, do this like weird thing.
Jackie: That’s what I tell people. And like, I think everyone thinks like, especially when people are just starting out, they think you have to have like 30, 40 clients and I’m like literally like five good clients are comfortable. Five to 10.
Corbin: That’s the sweet spot. Five to 10.
Jackie: Yeah. And more than that you’re just like a manager of like humans and people.
Corbin: That’s the other reason I don’t do the agency route. I am in this business because I like writing. And it took me forever to admit that to myself. Because again, even like the first part of my story I was telling you about, I was just like, I knew I wanted to be writer and just like never actually accepted it. And part of that too is because I would also advise people to be very careful of like sharing your goals to people. Even if they are like family members or like people you respect, like if they’re not writers, I would not tell them very much about what you’re doing. Because for some reason there’s this tendency, if you’re doing like anything creative and you’re like oh, I want to be a writer. Like I feel called to do that. I’ve always been like really good at it. I’m sure I can do that. There’s tons of people doing it online whatever. Anytime I’ve told that to someone in my life, they’ve been like, ha ha ha foolish child.
Jackie: Suffer like the rest of us.
Corbin: Like, I hope you like being a teacher or like going into law. And it’s like I never really felt like it was bothering me, but I’m sure I internalized that along the way. And it’s part of like what led to me putting off my, like, jump into this for so long. But it’s also just such a like, obnoxious thing to say. Like, if someone came up to me and was like I really want to be a Marine Biologist. Like, I love it. I’m really good at it. I’m super passionate about it. I’m sure I can do it. I would never be like, oh, Marine Biologist, good luck, you know, making a living doing that. Like, if someone said that, you’d just be like, okay I didn’t realize you were a career expert in marine biology career path.
But for some reason, if you’re doing something creative, I guess it’s just because everyone went through like writing and English and school, they feel like they have the ability to comment on it. Even having literally no experience in it at all. So, I would say stick to talking to other writers, if you are looking for advice. But also even with that, I would find a writer who has a similar lifestyle to you. Don’t necessarily follow people who have an agency of 12 people. Because that person is a project manager. Like they’re not a writer. That’s the other reason I started my channel, and why people like you so much I think Jackie is because everyone else on YouTube that makes copywriting content is not a freelance copywriter.
Like they all, maybe they own their own offer or they have an agency. Those things are great to have, but that’s why none of the content is actually about running a freelance copywriting business. You can still like make stuff about like, oh how to get your emails in the primary tab or like I don’t know, like here’s how to write a good headline. But none of it is actually about like getting clients or like, in the trenches of like being a freelance writer, which is why like, you know, I’ve gotten like, I think I mentioned you offhandedly and like one of the videos on my channel and I’ve gotten like half a dozen comments of people. Like I love Jackie Pierce. She’s my favorite copywriter on YouTube.
Jackie: I just started binging your stuff. I didn’t even see that. That would make me sweat. I’m going to ignore that. Makes me seem so weird.
Corbin: No, but people like, like, I would say, just keep that in mind too. If people are watching this and want to start anything of their own, like people resonate with like genuine people. You also have to think in terms of like, if you want to be consistent at like doing something, whether it’s writing or making videos, you have to make it enjoyable. And so I decided I would never be the YouTube channel who is like, “Hey guys, welcome to my channel.” A quick cut. “Oh, today we’re going to learn,” quick cut, edit. I hate watching stuff like that. And it’s like I don’t know.
Like I would never do that. And also the fake uptalk voice that people do when they get on camera. For some reason, I, just decided, I’m not doing any of this, because if I do, I’m going to hate doing this project. And so I didn’t expect people to specifically like that, about my channel, but I’ve gotten notes that they do, because people want to hear from real people. I mean, that’s the reason enterprise news is dying. People just watch YouTube because they’d rather hear from their peers, than some anchor who is owned by a corporate entity. And so if you come on here and you just sound like someone like that, then like I don’t know. You’re kind of dismissing the whole advantage that this platform offers. So it’s another side rant.
Jackie: No, I feel that though. And I think anybody who wants to start a channel, just keep it. I see people get down here and they try and do all this advice that they see the big channels and they’re like, oh, I have to do exactly that. And I have to talk about this complicated stuff. And I’m like, just talk about you.
Corbin: That’s the other thing I would say, what people think is their limiting factor or what’s like, people think like, oh, I’m pretty early on in this journey. Like, I’m never going to have a following because I need to be like Alex Hormozi or Grant Cardone and have a billion-dollar company. And it’s like, no, I don’t relate at all to either of those guys. Like every once in a while they’ll say something that I think is cool. Like oh, to exit. And I’m okay, I guess.
If you are just the guy who is one or two steps ahead of the people you’re trying to help, they’re actually going to relate to you way more than someone who is 20 steps ahead of them and owns a bunch of yachts and has a billion dollar real estate portfolio. Like people watch stuff like that for entertainment, but they’re more likely to genuinely bond with and trust people that actually are real and have a more relatable life. And so yeah, I would say just be genuine you
Jackie: Yes. And talk about your interest, even if they’re like– and you’re like, oh, this isn’t related. So much of it is interconnected. Like all of it is interconnected.
Corbin: Yeah. Like side tangent on that funny story. My channel I have now High Impact Writing or whatever. When I first started it, I think I called it my financial freedom or something. And I made literally every mistake you could possibly make, like my audio and video production quality was absolutely terrible. The channel was about just making money online and also investing and also writing at the same time, which would never work at all. So, obviously, the channel basically died in the water in the first couple months, except for like one video where I was just ranting in a slider t-shirt about copywriting and drinking, like a BEA energy drink. And just talking about copywriting for 10 minutes.
And that video has gone viral for me. It has 2000 views or something. But I basically forgot about the channel completely and just came back to it and people were commenting this is the only honest video I’ve ever seen on this subject. This is the best copywriting video I’ve ever seen. And I was like, oh, okay. I guess I should talk more about this, which in hindsight makes a lot of sense. Because I do it all day. Like why are you talking about investing. So yeah, that’s what I would say is yeah– Make some stuff and, see what resonates with people.
Jackie: Throw it out there and especially talk about what frustrates you about an industry. Because everyone’s talking about how great it is. I got on here and I was like, these guys are full of shit.
Corbin: Or they just all give the same advice because it’s all like the agreed upon thing that you should do. Just today I saw someone who I’m sure, like I respect and like makes like 10 times more money than I do. And he was like, someone asked, how do I get started copywriting? And he’s like, well, I hand-copied Gary Halbert’s sales letter for six to eight months. And I’m like, literally, that’s what he said. And I see people saying that all the time and it’s fine to do that if you really want, but it’s like if you want to start making money and like pivoting into this business, just write a blog for somebody. Do any paid project for somebody. And do something to build your portfolio and career instead of just like I don’t know, doing this like ritual that you have to do for six months before you’re allowed to get started as a writer.
Jackie: Some of those techniques are so old. Like I read so much of the old classic ad. Like oh, let’s bring these back. And I’m like, really?
Corbin: I don’t get it at all. I have direct response writers who I do, admire and respect. But they’re mostly email guys. So like Ben Settle and Matt Furey. But if you want to, why wouldn’t you handwrite something that is working today that someone is using to sell products right now, like this morning? Like if you were going to hand copy something, I would hand copy those emails, but then it’s like, I feel like an idiot. Because I’m writing an email by hand and it’s like, maybe you should feel like an idiot. It’s a dumb thing to do. Like why are you doing that?
Jackie: I’m so glad you agree because I see it all the time. Everybody who’s worked with me, they’re like, oh, is that my first assignment? And I’m like, are you out of your mind? I don’t have time for that. We don’t have time for that. I’m not going to give that to you. That’s going to take you weeks. We need to get you clients by two weeks from now. Are you out of your mind? Oh my God.
Corbin: And not everyone wants to write sales letters. Like again, I haven’t done a single one. If you’re just getting started into this, like, you don’t even know what you want to write yet. When I was starting, I did literally everything, web copy, blogs, emails. Ironically everything except for sales letters, which I pretty much ended up writing.
Jackie: So many people don’t do them at all. Like everyone think it’s like the pinnacle.
Corbin: I don’t know. It seems like if you’re like a normal company, I don’t know what the need is to do them. Like I just talked to someone today who is like, they do casino remodels and designs and building. And they need help with their project pages and some case studies. And like, I would rather write for that person every day. Like it’s just like a normal business that doesn’t even do any advertising. That probably makes tens of millions of dollars every year. They don’t need any kind of like VSL or like any of that. It just depends on what you want to do, I guess.
Jackie: Yeah. And, to have a sales page, you need to have, first of all, a product worthy of an entire sales page, which is not like headphones or most things that are for sale. And you need a lot of them. If you think you could write 20 for a client, I’m like, do they have 20 products for sale?
Corbin: And the reason these things are so long is because people have a million objections because they don’t know anything about you or your product or your company. I think a lot of direct responses like it gets sent to cold traffic and that’s supposed to be the thing that’s super cool about it. Oh, this is converting on cold traffic. But then the reason it’s so spammy and annoying is because you have to hit people over the head with like, here’s how great this thing is. Like, you have no resistance to how amazing this thing is, even though you don’t trust me at all. So, all the things I bought online, I’ve told people before, is stuff from you or stuff from Income School. I don’t think I’ve bought anything from Miles Beckler and the guy has changed my life.
So I would buy something from him in a heartbeat if it made sense to do, but there, like none of them have ever been a VSL, a 30-minute video sales letter. Like it’s been people who just like help me for years. And then I see something that can help me even more that’s for sale. I’m like, okay, I’ll buy this thing.
Jackie: And half the time for me, it’s just to thank them. Like, yeah, it’s usually helpful.
Corbin: Like the Income School course, it’s pretty good, but 80% of the stuff I already knew from binge-watching their channel. 400 hours of watching their channel, probably that, and their course is 400 bucks, one buck an hour. Plus I got some extra value ads out of it every day. So I would pay for that.
Jackie: Awesome. Well, I think that was an absolute– I mean, I love it because I think we’re on the same page of casual lifestyle, less stress, less pressure, less people to manage, less all that you know. So I know people obviously are going to check out your YouTube channel. I know I’ll link your website. I’ll link your Twitter. Everyone go follow Corbin.
Corbin: Yeah. I’ll tell people just the YouTube is High Impact Writing and then on Twitter, I’m @buffcorbin, which is kind of bad in hindsight. It sounds like a porn star name or something, which I promise is not what my Twitter is.
Jackie: But it’s there in case you decide to switch careers down the line.
Corbin: Yeah. I’m setting myself up for a pivot early on.
Jackie: You know, just in case, it’s not a bad idea. Awesome. Well, I so beyond appreciate having you here. We will definitely chat again in the future because I love to talk philosophy. That’s my favorite other side topic.
Corbin: Yeah. My channel’s not at the point where it’s big enough to host stuff like this really and have it make sense.
Jackie: Oh. But I will totally be on any time.
Corbin: I’d love to have you on and I’m excited to see the other people you have on your channel. I’ll do it vicariously through the podcast.
Jackie: Any other writers please. I’m just so glad you pitched yourself. I was like, people pitch yourself, please. Like I want to interview you.
Corbin: I’m surprised no one has said anything to you. I think you mentioned in one video, like something I resonated with and I was like, yeah, I’d like to talk about that.
Jackie: And I was like, yes.
Corbin: Which is kind of by the way, how I think about like networking.
Jackie: It’s so casual. And it can be, you don’t have to like wear the suit and tie and like go to networking events and shake hands and have your cards printed. I’m like just say what’s up on Twitter. That’s so much of it. Awesome. Well, I think we will wrap that up here, but that was amazing.